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Old 27-11-2013, 02:03 AM   #1
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Interview-forza-motorsport-5-creative-director-defends-in-game-economy

Saw this on .net, Dans response for in game economy. The interview was removed within 30 mins, but.....

I got 'a copy'.... enjoy.

Forza Motorsport 5 creative director defends in-game economy, amount of content
by Garnett Lee, Nov 26, 2013 4:00pm PST
Related Topics – Forza Motorsport 5, Microsoft, Turn 10 Studios, Forza Motorsport Series, Xbox One
Forza Motorsport 5 is shaping up to be an excellent playing game (our full review coming soon). However, gamers are angry at how certain locked cars are priced beyond the means of normal gameplay. With the game offering in-game credits via microtransactions, gamers are up-in-arms about the in-game economy. Turn 10 creative director Dan Greenawalt responded to our questions.

Why are there locked cars in Free Play mode? There's no progression element to Free Play, but a player can't just play with all the cars in the game?

Having a limited Free Play garage including rentals was introduced in Forza Horizon. Our goal was to get players to form connections with the cars that mattered most to them and to feel invested in the cars they own.


Forza Motorsport 5
What happened to the wealth of community features that made Forza so strong? It's surprising to see so much gone on a new console that's build to be community oriented. Where are clubs Storefront? Custom lobbies? Gifting of liveries and tuning?

Community is core to what we do on Forza Motorsport. In fact, it's the core part of the Franchise vision. For example, we have an even better community building system in place for creators with a curated content system that automatically serves players the best curated paints and tunes in the game. Gone are the days of managing your Storefront inventory. In the last generation most of our painters put up their works of art for free because they wanted the notoriety. Now, our best creators are paid in-game and recognized based on the usage of their creations, rather than number of downloads or market value. At the same time, drivers get this amazing UGC and don't have to pay anything for it. In all, it's a much better system for both parties.

Regarding car clubs, the new UI system in Forza Motorsport 5 means everything gets rebuilt. Being on the Xbox One gives us the opportunity to rethink old problems. The original Forza Motorsport featured Car Clubs, but Forza Motorsport 2 on the Xbox 360 didn't. For that matter, car clubs weren't in Forza Motorsport 3 either.

Finally, in addition to racing in a variety of preset lobbies, players can still create custom lobbies to race in with their friends.


What is the expectation for someone who wants to "play" their way to the top? Even with Drivatars I see players reporting between 5-30K in daily earnings. To be able to buy the top cars, or even just a single top car, at that rate would take a very long time. Even factoring in a lot of daily racing. Furthermore, credit earning does not seem to scale and ramp up with leveling.

The expectation is that different cars are more expensive and that makes them more rare. Because of the classification system, there is no "top" to the production classes. Currently, we have some players earning lots of credits and some players earning not nearly as much. This is a skill- and strategy-based economy with rarity provided by in-game price, not locking mechanisms. Players can receive +65% payout for playing against the hardest skill level Drivatars, up to +50% bonus credit payouts for turning off the assists, and up to +35% payouts for sticking with a favorite manufacturer. That's +150% bonus based on skill and strategy. When you couple that with Drivatar rewards, UGC payouts, and Forza Rewards (our franchise-based loyalty rewards) there are plenty of ways to earn credits in Forza 5. However, the fact remains: racing, skill, and strategy are the engine of the economy. Of course, we continue to monitor the economy via customer feedback as well as in-game telemetry and we have the ability to make adjustments should it be warranted.

What happened to the beloved Green Monster?

I assume you mean the Green Hell, aka the Nürburgring (and not Fenway Park!) When we built the tracks in Forza Motorsport 5, we had a set ourselves an extremely high quality bar. With a brand new graphics engine created specifically for Xbox One, we wanted to take advantage of light and atmosphere and there was no better way to show that off than the tracks themselves. As a result, for the tracks in Forza 5, we started from scratch. That meant going back to the beginning and capturing them in a way that would correct inaccuracies from the previous generation, updating tracks where warranted (such as the new layout for Silverstone), and using state-of-the-art techniques to bring these tracks to Xbox One. That included the use of laser-scanning technology, which allowed us to capture tracks with pinpoint accuracy. Tracks like Spa-Francorchamps and Bathurst – two of the most heavily requested tracks from the Forza community – are in Forza 5 and brought to life in stunning detail. Even tracks like Laguna Seca – a circuit that has been in the Forza series since the original game – have benefited from this approach. Forza Motorsport 5 players expect the cars and tracks in the game to be built to the highest detail and realism – anything less wouldn't be Forza. For that reason, we didn't put in old low res content just to pad our numbers. Expect more news on tracks in Forza Motorsport 5 in the near future.


With it being a flagship title for the new console, already a lot of cash to lay out for gamers, and not the largest garage of cars, why is there day one DLC? Why couldn't those cars have been part of the core game if they are ready at launch?

First, some context: As you know, Forza Motorsport 2 shipped a year and a half after the launch of the Xbox 360. It featured 270 cars (200 base models plus 35 race car liveries as well as 35 aftermarket tuner body kits) without cockpits and just 12 environments. This was less environments than the original Forza Motorsport, as all of the environments had to be rebuilt for the bespoke new generation engine. By comparison, Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec (the first GT game on PlayStation 2, and not a launch title, by the way) shipped with 150 cars and far fewer tracks.

Obviously, we did not cut anything from Forza Motorsport 5, as we had to build it all from the ground up. All 35+ gigs of it. We started the game a year before Forza 4 shipped in order to give us the time to build the game we wanted to build, and to define racing for the new generation. We have a new UI system, we have new materials and lighting that stress the imperfect details of the world running at 60fps and 1080p. There are the new physics and AI innovations - features not possible on last generation hardware. Of course, now taking advantage of next gen hardware, the tracks require more resolution, detail and materials – this is simply the cost of moving to a new generation for any team wanting to push. In addition, we have Forzavista for every car. This is what allowed us to do the close-up pre- and post-race cinematics and high-resolution cockpits, as well as the reflective cockpit glass. We were able to use the added console power to make cockpit view more immersive and more drivable than last generation. We've already seen from player data that the number of people that are playing the game from cockpit view (as the primary view) has greatly increased from Forza Motorsport 4 - that is the result of the same investment they gave us Forzavista.

Here's the context that is probably most surprising; Forza Motorsport 5 is actually the largest racing game ever delivered at the launch of a console, by a long shot. In fact, it would be huge even by second holiday standards. As mentioned above, it is bigger than Forza 2, which was delivered a year and half after the launch of the Xbox 360. It also has more car diversity than any previous Forza Motorsport; by including open wheel race cars and track toys like the KTM X-Bow and the Ariel Atom on top of the diversity that took us years to build up across multiple iterations on the Xbox 360. Moreover, we've defined an uncompromised quality bar for new generation racing games in both car and track detail and immersion - all while, delivering unprecedented size.

Regarding DLC, we have found that 10 cars a month is the fastest we could create “just in time” content. Just like in Forza Motorsport 4, we are planning to add as many as 10 cars a month to Forza Motorsport 5. It takes more than six months to build every car. Delivering cars in monthly packs allows us to keep the game new and fresh for those that are interested.

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Old 27-11-2013, 02:05 AM   #2
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Dan making excuses. Bah.

Here's my reply : "PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR BUM, STOP MAKING PATHETIC EXCUSES AND FIX THE MULTIPLAYER OR THERE WON'T BE ANYONE LEFT PLAYING IT TO BUY YOUR BELOVED DLC AND MICROTRANSATION TOKENS."

I wonder why MS asked the site to pull it? I guess the juicy bit got removed.
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Old 27-11-2013, 07:59 AM   #3
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Feel like i dodged an expensive bullet with this one.
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Old 27-11-2013, 08:59 AM   #4
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Perfectly reasonable responses and perfectly reasonable reasons for making the design decisions they did. Somehow don't think it will cut much slack with the entitled generation though.
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Old 27-11-2013, 10:41 AM   #5
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" Gone are the days of managing your Storefront inventory."

this was easily fixed, allow more uploads.
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Old 27-11-2013, 10:59 AM   #6
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A load of beard faces usual PR bull&$&#....outside of the actual driving , which is fantastic, the game sucks donkey balls
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Old 27-11-2013, 06:00 PM   #7
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Ohh man what a crock of BS , what annoys me the most is that they dont actually know how much danger Forza is in has he not weighed up the challengers ? 1 , GT6 on PS3 more tracks more cars no dishing out £400+ quid for a new console if you dont have a PS3 you can find them pretty cheap now ,2 IRacing well its a real sim racer for starters and with black friday sales coming its worth looking into ,lastly 3 , Project C.A.R.S. while yes it does have certain physics and license issues atm this is shaping up to be a game that actually relates to "Motorsports"

I know one thing if i was a Dan Greenwalt i would be doing everything possible to keep the current market and not excluding them for new so called car fans.
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Old 27-11-2013, 07:33 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Slim View Post
Perfectly reasonable responses and perfectly reasonable reasons for making the design decisions they did. Somehow don't think it will cut much slack with the entitled generation though.

Disagree slim. Yes that the entitled gen wave their arms in the air about everything but no insofar being non entitled myself, I'm very pissed at the missing basic stuff. Couldn't care too much about the car stuff or Dlc as I was willing to buy the super pack thing........most of you stopped really playing Forza a long time ago so won't bother you that much, but there is a core of us who were still in comps last week! Having the basic multiplayer tools we would expect to see actually improved not removed..

Beardy responses is everything I hate about corporate pr BS.
As it currently stands this has a few months shelf life for casuals and a few more for the fans. Fix a few of the multiplayer gripes and tweak the economy a little and it'll last a lot longer. As most of us have acknowledged it's got the making of a really good game.........atm for single player

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Old 27-11-2013, 07:41 PM   #9
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I agree..the basic missing things, lobby settings, tune, decal, car and paint sharing, and a decent credit payout would be enough to make this game epic.

I can cope with the lack of tracks ans cars, and would buy dlc. I can even cope with the constant pointing towards microtransactions...so long as I dont hsve to grind 400 hours to buy all the cars.

But with these missing things, it's a crock of ****...

An F1 comp is out for many months as people won't be able to afford to buy the bloody car, and we cant even use it in freeplay. It's infuriating
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Old 27-11-2013, 07:52 PM   #10
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Got to agree with @smokinmasta. While DG's replies are pretty much guaranteed to antagonise the "entitled" brigade, they are also a masterclass in avoiding the question. The whole interview shouts PR-speak, and I can only imagine that someone at MS realised how bad it came across and leant on the site to take it down.

The whole interview reads as coming from someone who doesn't intend to listen to his customers and is intent on plugging the PR machine (excepting a minor nod to perceived economy imbalances) and doesn't fill me with any confidence that there is a will to try to fix the flaws people are complaining about.

Ultimately though, it doesn't really affect any of us is the game is crap - those who don't like it will just either stop playing games or move onto something else. But if a large proportion of people move away from the game, or are put off buying it in the first place, then T10 the ones who suffer. Less money coming in would eventually lead to job losses for people working there... and those are the people who will suffer most if the franchise folds.
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Old 27-11-2013, 08:13 PM   #11
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I will carry on playing it, as at it's core it's a great game, and looking forward to comps etc...and I paid fir an Xbox to play the damn thing. But I will be buggared if I'm spending another penny on it till it's fixed...there's no point in buying dlc, as I cant afford many of the cars in game now, let alone extra ones
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Old 27-11-2013, 08:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Spiny Anteater View Post
Got to agree with @smokinmasta. While DG's replies are pretty much guaranteed to antagonise the "entitled" brigade, they are also a masterclass in avoiding the question. The whole interview shouts PR-speak, and I can only imagine that someone at MS realised how bad it came across and leant on the site to take it down.

The whole interview reads as coming from someone who doesn't intend to listen to his customers and is intent on plugging the PR machine (excepting a minor nod to perceived economy imbalances) and doesn't fill me with any confidence that there is a will to try to fix the flaws people are complaining about.

Ultimately though, it doesn't really affect any of us is the game is crap - those who don't like it will just either stop playing games or move onto something else. But if a large proportion of people move away from the game, or are put off buying it in the first place, then T10 the ones who suffer. Less money coming in would eventually lead to job losses for people working there... and those are the people who will suffer most if the franchise folds.

Facebook campaign. .. 48 hours without multiplayer, until the at least respond with something useful?

At the minute they seem to have ignored EVERYTHING, because, the graphics are cool.

Maybe a mass boycott for x amount of time may prompt a response. Doubt it though tbh.

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Old 27-11-2013, 08:27 PM   #13
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Going by moans in previous games, they will fix it all in Forza 6.. but make them cool features we can all look forward too. But because it took so much time to put them back in, weather and night racing will have to wait till Forza 7.. by which time I will be grey and balding and having less sex
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Old 27-11-2013, 08:30 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by smokinmasta View Post
Disagree slim. Yes that the entitled gen wave their arms in the air about everything but no insofar being non entitled myself, I'm very pissed at the missing basic stuff. Couldn't care too much about the car stuff or Dlc as I was willing to buy the super pack thing........most of you stopped really playing Forza a long time ago so won't bother you that much, but there is a core of us who were still in comps last week! Having the basic multiplayer tools we would expect to see actually improved not removed..

Beardy responses is everything I hate about corporate pr BS.
As it currently stands this has a few months shelf life for casuals and a few more for the fans. Fix a few of the multiplayer gripes and tweak the economy a little and it'll last a lot longer. As most of us have acknowledged it's got the making of a really good game.........atm for single player

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I'll concede that they need to sort out MP, and just because I haven't even been involved doesn't mean I don't want to in the future, just having too much fun in SP to worry too much about that at the moment. However, he was really being asked about the in game economy and his answers and reasons for that and lack of content are perfectly acceptable.

So take issue to his responses about the community side but don't blanket the whole interview as corporate pr bs when he makes some perfectly valid points.
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Old 27-11-2013, 08:33 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
Facebook campaign. .. 48 hours without multiplayer, until the at least respond with something useful?

At the minute they seem to have ignored EVERYTHING, because, the graphics are cool.

Maybe a mass boycott for x amount of time may prompt a response. Doubt it though tbh.

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Five fooking days, that's how long it's been out for. You expect them to be able to come up with an answer and a plan in four days? Seriously, chillax, share your concerns in a civilised way if nothing changes a couple of months down the line then you can reach for your pitch forks again.
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Old 27-11-2013, 08:37 PM   #16
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disagree about the economy side too. While I might agree with the intention, it's still way too hard. The casual gamer is essentially denied access to most of the cars in the game, if you don't have time to grind the credits out.

Think how long it takes to get a million credits, you need 104 million to buy all ingame cars excluding dlc. So it if takes roughly 4 hours to get 1m, that's 400 hours to get all the cars.

So the average player would have to spend 7.5 hours a week for 2 years solid to own all ingame content, excluding dlc cars and upgrades.. seriously, thats ridiculous
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Old 27-11-2013, 08:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Slim View Post
Five fooking days, that's how long it's been out for. You expect them to be able to come up with an answer and a plan in four days? Seriously, chillax, share your concerns in a civilised way if nothing changes a couple of months down the line then you can reach for your pitch forks again.

Slim, how many times have people chillaxed for turn 10 issues.... too many really. Do turn 10 EVER reply to concerns? No. Not in a meaningful way.

In a couple of months time, it will already be classed as a successful venture, as the moaning stopped while we all waited patiently, so t10 will be less inclined to change things.

I don't / wouldn't expect an answer or plan in 5 days, BUT believe everyone who has shelled the best part of £500 to play a game, DESERVES a response and acknowledgement. A simple statement, saying yes, there are issues, and a simple yes, we will/not be looking to fix these in the next x months.

It's common courtesy not an unrealistic expectation.

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Old 27-11-2013, 08:47 PM   #18
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And.... This is funny. American, over reaction and over acted. But funny.

Francis HATES Microtransactions and In App Purchases - YouTube

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Old 27-11-2013, 08:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
And.... This is funny. American, over reaction and over acted. But funny.

Francis HATES Microtransactions and In App Purchases - YouTube

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hahaha.. That is quality
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Old 27-11-2013, 08:59 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Doony View Post
disagree about the economy side too. While I might agree with the intention, it's still way too hard. The casual gamer is essentially denied access to most of the cars in the game, if you don't have time to grind the credits out.

Think how long it takes to get a million credits, you need 104 million to buy all ingame cars excluding dlc. So it if takes roughly 4 hours to get 1m, that's 400 hours to get all the cars.

So the average player would have to spend 7.5 hours a week for 2 years solid to own all ingame content, excluding dlc cars and upgrades.. seriously, thats ridiculous

Haven't you been playing every forza game constantly for the two years in between releases?

Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
Slim, how many times have people chillaxed for turn 10 issues.... too many really. Do turn 10 EVER reply to concerns? No. Not in a meaningful way.

Then that begs the question why the hell are you still buying the games?

And remember we will see more cars and tracks. There will be more features if the marketplace coming soon and hints in the super pass are anything to go by. Give them some time to reveal the plan for the game. Or sell it all, plenty of people desperate to get their mits on an Xbone. You'll probably get more than you paid for it. You'll have lost nothing.
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:03 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
Francis HATES Microtransactions and In App Purchases - YouTube

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Perfect John .. has it been posted at .net yet ?
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:12 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Slim View Post
Haven't you been playing every forza game constantly for the two years in between releases?


Then that begs the question why the hell do you still buying the games?

And remember we will see more cars and tracks. There will be more features if the marketplace coming soon and hints in the super pass are anything to go by. Give them some time to reveal the plan for the game. Or sell it all, plenty of people desperate to get their mits on an Xbone. You'll probably get more than you paid for it. You'll have lost nothing.

No I haven't.. and thats not the point. In previous games, I have been able to experiment, buy the cars I want, have multiple versions of the same car, spend hours testing cars for no credits, spend hours painting cars, spend hour hot lapping for no credits, spend time on my storefront, spend time in lobbies chatting

In this game, you have to spend 7.5 hours a week.. for 2 years, doing nothing but grinding credits to own cars, thats not including credits spent on tuning... and should I choose to buy dlc cars, you can add another 100 hours to that to get those too.

If I wanted to do all the normal things, and enjoy all parts of the game, and own all the cars, in its current form I would probably have to spend double that time on the game.

So it's fair to say the economy is broken.. purposely so, to make me want to spend money on tolkens....

The game should be designed so the average gamer, can own all the cars in a reasonable amount of time... think the likes of Skyrim, Oblivion etc was only 100 hours to complete everything

edit: in previous games, there were twice as many cars, and was possible to own them all in less than half that time.
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:23 PM   #23
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Who wants to own every car?

Most of them ( going on previous FM's ) are pointless anyway lol
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:23 PM   #24
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In game message from T10 'All cars will be 50% off this weekend' Great Forza 5 fire sale
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:25 PM   #25
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1) Starting this Friday we’re offering a 50 percent discount (credits & tokens) on every car in the game. This discount is available to all players. Every car, from the 1970 Nissan Datsun 510 to the 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO will be 50 percent off, so, if you’ve got your eye on something special on the car list, now’s the time to play and add them to your garage! This discount will be available between 12:01 a.m. Pacific on Friday, Nov. 29 and 11:59 p.m. Pacific on Sunday, Dec. 1.



2) If you are a Forza Motorsport 5 VIP member, you’ll receive the 2013 Lotus E21 grand prix car as a thank you. (Note: You must own Forza Motorsport 5 VIP membership to take advantage of this offer.) In addition to being one of the most radical and expensive cars in FM5, the E21 is also one of the quickest. For more on the E21, check out its entry on the Forza Motorsport 5 Cars page. This gift may take up to 24 hours or longer to be fulfilled in the game and, in order to receive your gift, you will need to back out to the main title screen with the orange McLaren P1 and then press “A” to log back in.



3) Those players who have already purchased the 2013 Lotus E21 as of today (Wednesday, November 27) will also receive the 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO as a further thank you. This gift may take up to 24 hours or longer to be fulfilled in the game and, in order to receive your gift, you will need to back out to the main title screen with the orange McLaren P1 and then press “A” to log back in.



4) For those players who have purchased the LaFerrari Car Pack or the Forza Motorsport 5 Car Pass we’ll gift the 2013 LaFerrari directly into your Forza Motorsport 5 garage. No need to purchase the car separately with in-game credits or tokens. (Note: In order to receive and use these gift cars, you’ll need to own either the LaFerrari Car Pack or the Forza Motorsport 5 Car Pass). This gift may take up to 24 hours or longer to be fulfilled in the game and, in order to receive your gift, you will need to back out to the main title screen with the orange McLaren P1 and then press “A” to log back in.

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Old 27-11-2013, 09:29 PM   #26
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Missed a bit

5) Finally, we’re dramatically increasing the credit payout available to all Forza players in December via Forza Rewards, our ongoing loyalty program that rewards players with credits and cars for playing Forza games. You’ll be able to redeem these rewards in December but here’s a tip: The higher your Tier level reaches before December rolls around, the better the rewards you’ll be able to redeem, so get your play time in now and level up!

Now, a word about tokens in the Forza Motorsport 5 Limited Edition. In our original description for Forza Motorsport 5’s Limited Edition, we told you that Limited Edition owners would get 1,250 in-game tokens, which we mistakenly said would be enough tokens to afford any car in the Forza 5. It isn’t. As a result, a number of you have pointed this out to us – that there are a number of cars in the game that cost more than 1,250 tokens to purchase.

We’re sorry. In order to make up for this discrepancy, we will soon be offering Forza Motorsport 5 Limited Edition owners the chance to download and own the car of their choice in the game. Players will be able to choose from any of the on-disc cars in Forza 5 and will be able redeem this offer on ForzaMotorsport.net via a dedicated page that will be available no later than December 16.

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  Oops! Cheers.
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:30 PM   #27
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I believe this is what they call damage control lol

Don't get me wrong I am happy they have done this.
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:30 PM   #28
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well that's something at least.. seems they do have ears after all.. Acknowledgment that the game is indeed broken Happy days. Now if they just let us share paints, decals, tunes and fix the multiplayer ... all will be well with the world, and I won't feel bad for dropping £430
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:33 PM   #29
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They are sort of listening but you know its not going to be enough. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:36 PM   #30
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It's like putting a bandaid on a bullet hole ...
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